Volunteer Capa

[bagel]

timpsi said:

Well I think the simple reason why Mace volunteers Capa is because Capa's the one who decided that they should make a detour at Icarus I. And when Trey messed up the shields while programing the ship to change course, Mace thinks that Capa's the one responsible at the start. That's why Mace volunteers Capa in my opinion =D

This makes loads of sense to me actually
I see the points that everyone is making but for some reason this stands out to me
I think that it may be because this explanation makes Mace less "I hate you so I want you to die"

I still dont understand Kaneda's choice
I see how it works well for the story
But like someone posted above with hilarious commentary about what would have REALLY happened - I think Kaneda should have known Mace was better (pardon the pun) suited for the job

[chero]

bagelsleeper said:

timpsi said:

Well I think the simple reason why Mace volunteers Capa is because Capa's the one who decided that they should make a detour at Icarus I. And when Trey messed up the shields while programing the ship to change course, Mace thinks that Capa's the one responsible at the start. That's why Mace volunteers Capa in my opinion =D

This makes loads of sense to me actually
I see the points that everyone is making but for some reason this stands out to me
I think that it may be because this explanation makes Mace less "I hate you so I want you to die"

I still dont understand Kaneda's choice
I see how it works well for the story
But like someone posted above with hilarious commentary about what would have REALLY happened - I think Kaneda should have known Mace was better (pardon the pun) suited for the job

Don't forget about Capa's leisure time in the message booth, too.

Also, after multiple viewings, I find Kaneda's choice pretty clear. The reason was shown in the scene where Kaneda is listening to Pinbacker's report and in the scene where he is talking with Corazon. "You're worried about Icarus I." Of course he is! By the way Kaneda was staring at the screen in the first mentioned scene, it looked obvious. If you read Kaneda's backstory, too, you'll know why he was worried in the first place: Kaneda knew Pinbacker before he left on the mission. So there you have it. "Searle's argument is sound." was exactly what Kaneda wanted to hear. The choice was risky and emotionally-driven, but then again in the mess hall there was an open floor.... if one were to visit another spaceship, you would assume that an attempt to dock would be involved.

Kaneda as ringleader and as Pinbacker's friend had a reason for doing what he did. I don't blame Kaneda for making the mission more difficult. In any case, the power of emotion swayed this decision. It's really hard to remain rational in a conflict whose solution involves the discovery of a friend's condition, makes you reflect on life (or the absence of), and reminds you of the uncertainty behind the mission's outcome (with one payload or two). Even my blaming of other characters previously was irrational. The real blame goes to the decision's complex circumstances and the condition of being human.

SO, that's my opinion in a nutshell.

[hongi]

Well I think the simple reason why Mace volunteers Capa is because Capa's the one who decided that they should make a detour at Icarus I. And when Trey messed up the shields while programing the ship to change course, Mace thinks that Capa's the one responsible at the start. That's why Mace volunteers Capa in my opinion =D

Exactly. Remember Capa and Mace's second fight after discovering Trey's body? Mace comments on how Trey took responsibility, unlike Capa (at least, I think that's what Mace says) for the deaths of so many crew members. Responsibility and duty is the most important thing for Mace, he's a military man himself.

So when things go wrong, Mace instantly volunteers Capa out of anger ("It's your fault, go fix it") as well as underlying resentment because of the squandered communication package. And I'd wager that the two didn't get along even before that. Their personalities clash. Mace is practical and inflexible, Capa is a little...free-floating lets say.

[timpsi]

After a long brake I'm back on the forum!

Thanksfor supporting me with my answer, I really think your answers are great too! =D

[mwanatabu]

My 2(?) cents:

Mace volunteers Capa "in return" for the fact he got to be the last to phone home. But I don't think it's revenge or testosteron-driven. Throughout the movie, Mace makes decisions based on logic and never loses eye of the actual goal. He is willing to sacrifice anything in order to achieve it, so I don't buy him just serving Capa a cold dish after his "apology" and prescribed therapy. I mean, Mace may be capable of an outburst, but that's not a decision, right? He probably added one and one and concluded it was time for Capa to step up and pay in return for his final call home.
In Mace's mind, volunteering Capa is logical and right. As was pointed out earlier in this discussion: Trey is too upset -obviously- to go out there, Cassie and Mace is busy, Corazon needs to be there to secure the oxygen-supply for the journey back home and may not even be qualified, as I think Searle is and Harvey is second in command. Capa is qualified to do the job with the panels and he is supposed to ignite the payload manually only if everything fails. And at that point it does not look like things are going downhill yet.

The fact it is a right decision and its unspoken arguments make Kaneda go along with it.

Also I don't buy the "Capa needs to be pushed in front of the lens because he is the lead"-explanation, simply because this movie is all about how completely different people in one crew get the job done with different inputs, but all eventually sacrificing their own lives for it, mostly intentionally. I mean, the want to get to go back home, Harvey being the one showing this most, but that's inferior to establishing their mission and they consciously are putting their lives on the line first. All are equal in this effort, Mace got himself a slice of the cake just as big as the others. Capa just got to be there last.

[tragicaccident]

I believe Mace volunteered Capa because...

a) he blames Capa for the whole thing. I think that when it comes to this mission, mission that's more important thatn anything, Mace sees things black and white, there's no grey area or colors.

b) he thinks Capa deserves it. the two of them obviously don't like each other. Mace was still angry to him and thought "this is a nice way to get back at him"

c) he wants to test Capa. if he has what it takes to go out there and fix the shield. because it's dangerous and Mace isn't sure about Capa. he knows Capa is good at what he does, meaning the payload, but what about the other stuff? what about when it's the real deal? can he handle it?

d) he knows Capa can do it. this would mean he actually trusts Capa... or maybe he thinks Capa is the only one who could do it. Trey is a wreck, Harvey can't go, I don't think Mace thinks the girls can do it, he thinks Searle is a little crazy... and maybe Mace thinks he's is too valuable to go himself. he's needed there, inside the ship.

I don't know, these are all just guesses.

[kaliszewski]

This isn't something Capa has to be good at. Mace is the ship's mechanic; Mace should be fixing the shield. His partner in fixing the shield should be Harvey, who has nothing better to do now that their comms are effectively toast. Barring Harvey, Corazon should be lending a hand (let's face it, if something were to happen to her, the ship could guide even a brown-thumbed idiot like me through gardening: just add water, and ferns can pretty much grow themselves). Kaneda, as captain, should be coordinating the repair job from the flight deck; Cassie, of course, should be driving. Alex Garland sprung the "volunteer Capa" nonsense on us to create tension (Oh, look, it's space: they're cracking up! Mace is mad 'cause he couldn't phone home and Capa made a boneheaded [yep!] judgment call!), and, frankly, it doesn't really work. Kaneda would pick the team to perform the repair, and he would know that not only is Mace more qualified than Capa to perform such a repair, it's Mace's job. He would also know that sending Capa outside to perform a task outside his area of qualification (or at least well outside his comfort zone: Mace is a professional astronaut, Capa is not) is a morbidly unnecessary risk, especially since Capa is essential to the delivery of the payload.

The thing is, too, this is not Marine Corps boot camp. The point is not to challenge Capa by tearing him down physically and emotionally and building him into a bigger, tougher, more confident guy. It's about getting his skinny butt within shooting distance of the sun so he can work his physics magic and save the world. That, in Mace's mind, would equal coddling. Maybe in Kaneda's and Capa's minds, too. Think of all the guilty possibilities...! Mace wouldn't volunteer Capa, and he'd be sure to let Capa know why: "... 'cause we have to baby your lily-white ass, don't we, Capa...?" Kaneda would wince at the tactlessness, but he would concur. And Capa, even though he'd be looking every bit the cool, level-headed, logical scientist-- Capa would feel about two inches tall....

My solution (and, yes, I have one, or I wouldn't be shooting off my mouth): Let Harvey get cooked in Kaneda's place now, and let Kaneda take the slow boat to Shattersville on the jump back from the Icarus I. That would give Kaneda his chance to see what had happened to the first mission, and his death during the jump (with Capa watching helplessly as his father-figure captain drifts away from the ship) would hit Capa like a ton of bricks in terms of guilt. (Not to mention, Harvey's death-- and Mace's near-death-- while fixing the shield would fuel Mace's slow-smoldering "Look what you've done to the mission" attacks on Capa.) And placing Kaneda's death later in the film would badly (and dramatically) shake Capa's self-confidence heading into the final act, rendering him a bit more human.

Another fifty-seven cents' worth (accounting for inflation and the exchange rate, that's about the cost of one British penny now, isn't it...? ).

[chero]

Replacing Kaneda with Harvey during the shield repair scene would be upsetting in my opinion. Alex Garland is already criticized for always killing off his characters. By killing off the crew's communication officer once their comm towers get fried is plain obnoxious. Harvey's death would be too convenient and not as meaningful as a sacrifice made by the captain. Heck, it could insinuate that Harvey committed suicide because of his newly downgraded (or removed) status in the crew - and that's not emotionally engaging unless we see a gradual buildup (like in Trey's case). With Kaneda out of the way, Harvey has meaning, that is, becoming captain.

Another reason why Harvey shouldn't replace Kaneda is because there weren't any memorable scenes previously that made the audience truly care about him. Hiro has enough talent to grab his audience with the amount of screentime he had in this film (or perhaps it was his sunglasses...and hair...and eyes...). Although Kaneda has the least screentime, some people still vote him as a favorite character (not only me, I swear). I think Garland chose Kaneda to die first to create a powerful sense of vulnerability among the other crew members. Harvey gave me a version of that sense already and I think his colleagues sensed that too so his death wouldn't have been a surprise.

Harvey's moment was destined to be on Icarus I. What better way to highlight Harvey by threatening the life of the main protagonist (Capa) which resulted, more importantly, in the first (although brief) compromise between two warring characters (Capa and Mace). If Kaneda were to be there, we wouldn't have seen this pivotal scene for Mace. It was a powerful moment for me when Mace rationalized to a fragile Harvey about letting Capa have the spacesuit. Mace was protecting Capa. Imagine that! Also, Searle's last moment would overpower Capa's grief for Kaneda (if anyone has time for that since sabotage is on the list of things to talk about *tsk, tsk*). You can call me a problematic geek, you can call me a rambling fangirl, but I would prefer to see the entire crew grieve over Kaneda's death (which is the very first one to set the tone of the film) rather than having it clash with Searle's moment in Icarus I's Observation Room. But Harvey? Yeah, he can go.

I believe I said this once before, but I will say it again: I am a hypocrite. I love Hiro. I love Kaneda. I desperately want to see more of both, most notably in Sunshine. Despite this, Kaneda's death scene was beautiful and breathtaking. The way he turned to see the Sun...his expressive eyes...Capa's persistant calling...it was perfect. You cannot script that.

It's really hard to decide on a replacement for Kaneda in this scene. It makes sense for Mace to replace Capa yet it seemed like two pilots were required on deck when the Oxygen Garden was burning. Also, do you think someone will make the same choice as Mace to release all of the oxygen to get rid of the fire? Cassie seemed like she wanted to save the garden and Harvey only had the idea of closing the garden off from the rest of the ship. Searle wasn't there since he is an experimental scientist who is caught up with the situation outside while Corazon and Trey were much too emotional to think rationally. There are just too many unknown "What-If's" to satisfy. With Kaneda, there was a plan however disappointing/depressing/depreciating/etc it might have been.

[Starshine]

Actually, Kanedas death is a great symbol for the further course of the story: It foreshadows that the mission gets out of control. In my opinion , the death of the captain is absolutely necessary for the tension of the movie. Kaneda would not let the mission fail. Additional, he may be the only person who could stop Pinbaker (I'm asking me what would happen if they meet? Would Pinbaker be able to kill him? Probably not). His death makes the mission harder and it allows the conflicts between the crew members when there is a lack of oxygen. A lot of the exciting things how decide about the success of the mission would not happen with Kaneda. After Kanedas death everything goes wrong. His death is the catalyser of the story, so it is essential that he dies early.

[troopercooper]

Kaneda's death is indeed necessary for the film to progress. His death however, was not necessary - the shield could have been stopped at any time. With the shields all secure, it begs the question of why they didn't just stop the ship and let him back in, especially since they could have let the shield reach 96% Sunlight with no real effect to Kaneda's suit.

Kaneda's being out there is in no way questionable. We know Pinbacker had gone out to repair the shields in the past during the Icarus I mission, and he is a specialist like the rest. If Capa had been in truly serious danger, Kaneda would not have let him go - that fact is simple. Capa was fine. He was always fine. He was never going to get hurt out there.

Another perspective - had Kaneda not died, wouldn't the entire crew have died from oxygen depravation before reaching the sun? Another plot twist - had Kaneda survived, Trey would not have whigged out and Harvey would have remained confident in his work, meaning that someone could have been watching the docking arm while everyone scouted Icarus I. With the full compliment of 8 crew members available as opposed to 6. Plants could have been recovered, and everyone would have made it home. Sadness!

As for why Mace volunteers Capa, it's out of animosity - pure and simple, no two ways about it. Massie fans could spout all manner of lies about it being an attempt to kill Capa to get Cassie back but at the end of the day, Mace knows Capa is important, and odds are Mace was just trying to be a bastard and give Capa an actual job to do outside of looking after his precious payload.

[linda]

Nov 7, 2007 14:23:42 GMT -5 timpsi said:

Well I think the simple reason why Mace volunteers Capa is because Capa's the one who decided that they should make a detour at Icarus I. And when Trey messed up the shields while programing the ship to change course, Mace thinks that Capa's the one responsible at the start. That's why Mace volunteers Capa in my opinion =D

I agree this is the reason why Mace volunteers Capa. He blames him for everything happens after his decision! But actually, as someone has already said , there is really no reason for Kaneda to accept this , since Mace is obviously more qualified than Capa for repairations, so it does not make any sense in my opinion.

[nimue]

Hey - I'd volunteer Capa too - to be my sexbot. Oops, did I just type that out loud?

[linda]

Oh well - that's another story :-P

[hongi]

Jun 23, 2008 16:15:26 GMT -5 troopercooper said:

Kaneda's death is indeed necessary for the film to progress. His death however, was not necessary - the shield could have been stopped at any time. With the shields all secure, it begs the question of why they didn't just stop the ship and let him back in, especially since they could have let the shield reach 96% Sunlight with no real effect to Kaneda's suit.

IIRC, the shield rotation was still under computer control and so Cassie and Harvey would have to input their codes again in order to get manual control - perhaps there wasn't enough time to do this. IIRC again, there was a few scant seconds between Harvey saying that Kaneda wouldn't make it, and Kaneda being swamped by the wave of fire. I think they all understood this and didn't try.

And we don't really know how the shield turning mechanism works. Maybe there's a ten second delay for the shield to completely stop, which isn't so unbelievable if you consider the sheer size of the shield, the electronics, the engineering, the hydraulics etc etc that make it up.

Also, if they stop the rotation before it's complete, the comms tower could still be in the path of the light and therefore the fire hits the garden again. Although perhaps the shield had already rotated to an extent that the murderous comms tower wasn't an issue anymore...in which case, why would the computer try to adjust the shield to the full 100% and not say, the exact angle necessary? Hm...

[stgeorges]

Reading Garland's characters backgrounds, i think that Capa, Cassie and Mace are forming a kind of "love triangle".
Mace could be Cassie's aborted child's father (thanks to Searle) as Garland says "that he could [Mace] often dream of Cassie". He could be jealous of Capa/Cassie love relationship (barren to his mind), that's why he's so bad-tempered bout Capa.
But i subscribe to the argument that Mace could want Capa to prove everybody he's not only a "passenger" but a real member of the crew as Capa spent a lotta time checking the bomb.